10月29日晚七点，DeFi七点钟社区迎来第10期的两位嘉宾，分别是Elena Sinelnikova，Co-Founder and CEO of MetisDAO和Kevin Liu，Co-Founder and Product Lead of MetisDAO，分享主题：MetisDAO：基于Optimistic Rollup的Layer 2治理协议和协作框架

DeFi七点钟社区，DeFi国内第一社区

目前分群建设1000+，覆盖20万＋行业用户，150家区块链行业媒体宣发报道

由区块链技术的多位大咖共同发起成立

目的是学习DeFi区块链知识，推进区块链技术在各个行业的落地和应用

在正式开始之前，请两位嘉宾做自我介绍：

Elena：Elena Sinelnikova is here! Founder of CryptoChicks and MetisDAO. I have a tech background – 20 years experience working as Microsoft solutions architect in Canadian government and law enforcement.

In 2015 I became interested in blockchain when my friend’s son Vitalik started his project called Ethereum. In 2017 me and my friend Natalia founded CryptoChicks – a female organization focused on blockchain education for women. We started it as a small meetup group and nowadays it grew to have chapters in 56 countries. Kevin and I met a few years ago to become partners in one of the educational projects with CryptoChicks. Then we worked together on the Token Economy Institute project that grew into Metis Protocol. We have a long history before we became co-founders for MetisDAO.

MetisDAO的联合创始人和CEO。CryptoChicks的创始人，技术背景，曾为加拿大政府和法律部门提供了20年的技术服务。2015年Elena进入区块链领域，当时Elena好朋友的儿子Vitalik开始了他的项目——以太坊。2017年Elena和这个好朋友Natalia成立了CryptoChicks，全球最大的女性区块链社群，遍布全球56个国家。Elena和Kevin在几年前认识并有合作，然后我们一起在Token Economy Institute（TEI）中进行协作，最终TEI成长为Metis Protocol，所以Elena和Kevin有着多年的协作历史。

Kevin:MetisDAO的联合创始人和产品负责人。Token Economy Institute创始人，曾任某一线公链北美业务负责人，一直在研究DAO、治理和通证经济。之前有多年的科技公司产品管理经验。

下面是正式问答环节：

1、DAO（Decentralized Autonomous Organization）即去中心化的自治组织，这个概念是不是简单的一个社区组织概念？DAO的核心是什么？应该从哪几个层次去思考DAO？

1、DAO is a Decentralized Autonomous Organization. Does DAO equal the concept of a community organization? What is the core of the DAO? And in which aspects can we analyze a DAO?

E: Vitalik has a paper to introduce the difference among different distributed organizations, which you can find the linkage here.

https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/05/06/daos-dacs-das-and-more-an-incomplete-terminology-guide/

In short, a DAO has three key and indispensable components: the community, the token, and the blockchain infrastructure.

DAO lives on the internet and blockchain, now most DAOs leverage voting for the community to reach consensus, and the smart contracts will automatically implement the predefined contract terms.

So, DAO is based on community, but not just a community.

K: Vitalik在2014年就有一篇文章在介绍DAO和各种分布式组织的区别。简单来说，DAO有三个不可或缺的元素，社群，token和区块链基础设施。

DAO存活在互联网和区块链上。目前大多数DAO是采用投票来让社群达成共识，而智能合约将自动执行预设好的合约条款。因此，DAO源于社群，但不是简单的社群的概念。

是的，DAO其实并不神秘，我们可以举个例子，在现实世界中，我们有“公司”这种组织形式，他们是社会经济的价值创造主体。那在去中心化世界中，DAO相当于传统公司的对标，DAO是去中心化世界的价值创造主体。

当然DAO和传统公司有很大不同，传统公司是带着围墙的花园，有着明确的边界，利益相关者大多有着信任基础，为了完成既定的战略目标而组织在一起；DAO是没有边界的，任何人都可以随时加入退出，所以其实社群成员是缺乏信任基础的，DAO依靠投票来进行简单的治理，依靠智能合约来执行。

但是，在许多DAO的实践中，社群、token和区块链基础设施三者之间实际上是脱节的，社群变成了韭菜，投票变成了闹剧，社群成员除了喊单和被割，根本参与不到DAO的项目之中。DAO本身的构划很好，但实践中DAO的巨大潜力完全无法发挥。

所以我们对DAO进行了改进，提出了DAC的概念，Distributed Autonomous Company, 分布式的自组织商业体。我们首先明确的一点就是大家加入DAC是为了获取各种利益（经济上或声誉上），那为了获取利益，你需要在社群中为项目做各种贡献，然后就能获得token激励，而区块链，再加上一套治理机制可以保障你的利益。

我们把DAC定义为DAO的子集，这样更加具象落地，而且方便社群实施。

2、您是基于什么理由，选择DAO领域的创业和投资工作？

2、Why do you choose DAO as the battlefield for your startup?

E: First, I came from the community, I understand how hard it is to organize and coordinate community members’ activities. From my own practice, I need a much more powerful and effective community governance mechanism. Then I came across DAO during Consensus conference in New York. Great idea! DAO evolved since then, but still the current DAO’s governance mechanism is incompetent to deal with community collaborations, voting is only effective for simple collective decision-making, like yes or no questions, and it is easily manipulated by giant whales or speculators.

And actually, voting is also a very complicated governance mechanism, you can find from the data, the voting rate is very low in most cases because most token holders only look for arbitrage opportunities. These token holders don’t care what’s going on with the project as they are not even involved in the project operation. So, although DAO stems from the community, the community power is not fully unleashed.

You know, people also complain the governance mechanism is not effective, while at the same time, they always want the minimized governance, so contradicting!

The innovation in governance mechanism is super hard, but we like the challenge and we believe DAO needs a powerful and simple governance mechanism to support its sustainable development.

K: Elena是来自社群，所以她说她特别能体会到协调和组织社群成员的活动有多难，她本身就需要一个强大有效的治理机制来帮助。

她遇到了DAO，但是发现DAO现有的治理机制无法应对社群中的复杂协作场景，投票只对简单的“是或者否”这一类的问题有意义，虽然也会被巨鲸和投机者所左右。

而且实际上，投票机制听起来简单，但实操起来很复杂，而且很多数据都表明，社群用户的参与率非常低，那些持币者由于缺少途径参与到项目之中，他们根本不关心项目怎么样了，更多地在寻找套利机会。

所以DAO的这种结构并不天然就能将社群的力量释放出来。有很多人一边在喊治理没有发挥作用，但是一边又要简化治理机制，这种行为是互相矛盾的。虽然在治理领域的创新很难，但是我们喜欢挑战，而且我们坚信DAO需要一个更加强大但简单的治理机制来支持它的可持续发展。

我和Elena有同感，一方面如果你认同我刚才DAO与传统公司的对比，你就能理解DAO对于整个区块链生态的发展的重要性，另一方面，我们也看到这个里面有一些很基础的领域，比如我们所专注的治理，还有很大的提升空间。

我们认为正是不断完善的治理结构，让公司这种结构能够持续400多年，而DAO也需要一套更加完善的治理结构，让缺乏信任基础的社群成员能够在DAC中，1）简单方便地建立起协作；2）协作双方的利益能够得到有效的保障。这也是我们设立MetisDAO这个项目的初衷。

3、据我所知，MetisDAO提供了一种不同于投票逻辑的治理方式，能否做个介绍，它的治理优点有哪些？

3、 As I know, the governance methodology of MetisDAO is different from the traditional voting mechanism, can you introduce what makes MetisDAO superior to other governance protocols?

E: MetisDAO is built on Metis Protocol. Metis Protocol is a Layer 2 governance protocol based on Optimistic Rollup and it provides a new governance and collaboration framework for DAOs.

Based on Metis Protocol, all community-based projects like DeFi can quickly create their DAO via an easy-to-use interface. Metis Protocol also provides a framework within these DAOs to build the trust and reputation through staking and pullback, incentivize their members involvement in collaborations, tasks and activities.

Metis Protocol believes that the best governance is no governance at all, so it leverages staking as the foundation of governance, the stakes will act as the commitment and will be returned (along with the incentives and reputation power) if everything goes well (no governance needed).

However, if something goes wrong in the process, the hidden governance mechanism will be triggered. The staked deposits will be frozen, the off-chain Arbitrator will jump out to help, and the deposit of the “bad party” will be forfeited to repay the “good party”, the reputation power of the “bad party” will be downgraded as well.

To facilitate the collaborations among the community, Metis Protocol is leveraging the Optimistic Roll sidechain (high scalability, low cost, high privacy), smart contract (as the witness of what have been promised), and the microservice tools (implementing various collaborations and acting as the track record) to make the collaboration done.

K：MetisDAO是构建在Metis Protocol之上。Metis Protocol是基于Optimistic Rollup的二层治理协议，面向DAO提供一套全新的治理和协作框架。

基于Metis Protocol，任何以社群为基础的项目，比如Defi都可以通过一个简单易用的界面生成DAO，然后在DAO之中，通过质押和回撤机制来构建信任，通过协作、任务、活动等来激励社群用户参与并根据贡献获取激励。

我们更信奉最好的治理是不需要治理。因此，我们把质押作为建立协作关系的基础，质押如同承诺，协作完成的好会自动返还（无需治理）。但是如果出现争议，Metis Protocol的回撤机制就会生效，质押保证金会被冻结，等到双方协商好或者仲裁官给出意见后再进行分配。违约方的保证金会被没收，声誉值下调以示惩罚。

这种治理机制与传统商业场景下的治理机制类似，大家签完合同就各自去执行了，出了问题才找仲裁或诉讼。

Metis Protocol利用Optimistic Rollup侧链、智能合约（记录承诺）和微服务工具（负责协作执行和跟踪记录）构建了ComCo协作框架来方便协作的实施。

相比较而言，Aragon和DAOStack提供了一些基础的工具和算法，比如投票、融资和预算分配等，但这些治理工具一方面无法动员起整个社群的力量，另一方面也不是为普通社群成员服务的，离社群成员很远。

而Metis Protocol构建的是一个系统的协作环境，有社群成员信任的建立机制，有保障协作实施的机制，还有奖惩制度。这些都是每个DAO组织在日常运营中所需要的。

所以Metis Protocol是一个更基础和普世的治理协议和协作框架。基于Metis Protocol，除了区块链项目，很多的互联网社区、分享经济、零工经济(Gig Economy)、开源软件项目等等都可以轻松的转化为DAO，引导社群的力量，通过协作和有效的治理来促进其项目或生态的发展。

4、现在大家都对以太坊Layer 2抱有很大的期待，作为架构在Layer 2上的产品设计者，如何评价Layer 2？

4、Now we have a lot of expectations on Ethereum Layer 2. As the protocol built on Layer 2, how do you think of Layer 2?

E: Ethereum provides the capability for innovation, but the ironic part is the more you hope to use it, the slower it becomes.

And the gas cost is so high that only giant whales can afford it.

With low scalability, functions and UX are also limited. Especially in Defi, the user experience of DEX is very bad.

Layer 2 is an important step for Ethereum to scale to the infrastructure with real usability.

With Layer 2, we would expect the Cambrian Explosion of many DApps and new business models. Defi and DAO will also benefit from this improvement.

K：以太坊提供了创新的能力，但是讽刺的是你越想用它的时候，它越慢越贵。以太坊的可扩展性差也导致在功能和用户体验上表现很差，相信大家体验过Defi的各种产品、交易所后都有所感受。

Layer 2可以让以太坊扩展为真正可用的基础设施，我们期待有了Layer 2，更多的DApps和新的商业模式可以大爆发。Defi和DAO也会从中受益。

是的，Defi和DAO也会从中受益。其中成本的降低是第一层的，这个是最直接的。

我们更看中的是Layer 2的设计可以为区块链带来更多的可扩展性和更强大的功能，支付是第一波利用Layer 2的应用，后面会有很多其他的业务也可以嫁接到Layer 2上。

目前Layer 2 有各种不同的方案，比如Plasma, ZK Rollup, Optimistic Rollup等。在ZK Rollup和Optimistic Rollup之间，ZK实现机制更加复杂，成熟还需要时间，而OR相对简单，OVM与EVM兼容，可以很快的移植现有的应用，所以我们也把他叫做Lazy Rollup。OR不久前发布了测试网，我们也是最早跟踪OR的团队之一。

5、我们了解到Metis Protocol采用的是Optimistic Rollup机制，像uniswap, Synthetix这些一线项目都是基于这个OR来构建他们下一代的交易系统，Metis Protocol有什么不一样的地方吗？

5、 We understand that Metis Protocol is built on Optimistic Rollup. Tier 1 projects like Uniswap and Synthetix are also building their next stage transaction systems on OR. Can you introduce how Metis Protocol makes use of OR, and what’s the difference with other teams?

K：在应用OR上面，目前不少团队在基于OR做支付，这一点很好理解，一方面OR还有很多的开发工作，目前Layer 1和Layer 2之间的互通还有问题，而且在支付效率方面也没有想象中那么快（因为rollup需要等待，有时间间隔），这些是重点的攻关方向。

Metis Protocol与其他的团队是不同的。我们是把OR侧链看作是当年刚刚发现金矿的美国西部，Layer1和Layer2互通的解决仅仅解决了通路问题，但OR侧链的可扩展性，以及灵活的与Layer 1的交互机制可以扩展出更多的应用。

我们是把OR侧链用来构建社群协作的环境。

第一，协作是社群产生价值的基础方式，非常关键，但往往这些协作很多细节和逻辑，很重，而且这些协作细节不需要Layer 1的智能合约来进行全局共识（Layer 1也无力承担），协作各方商议好后就可以确认，所以我们把它放到Layer 2去承载，我们专门打造了ComCo协作实施框架来对协作进行模块化、标准化处理；

第二，质押与回撤的机制很好，简单易用，符合我们“最好的治理就是没有治理”的思想；

第三，社群协作对实时性要求不高，所以我们不太受支付效率的影响。

但是现在的OR还不大符合我们的要求，因此，我们重点优化了aggregateor的工作机制，以及动态的违约防止机制，并增加了对链上协作的隐私保护。

6、中国国内现在还处于了解DeFi的阶段，大部分情况是将DeFi和投机联系在一起。想请问海外的DeFi和DAO创业形势如何？

6、 Now in China, people are still learning Defi, and from what we witnessed, DeFi is always connected with speculation. Can you introduce how Defi and DAO builders are doing in the North American market?

E: I met Michael J. Casey during blockchain conference in the Bahamas in 2019, where we both were keynote speakers. His speech was around Money – got me interested and I started following him. In one of his articles Money Reimagined he suggested: DeFi-ing History, “by some measures, DeFi is nothing new.” Defi is only an extension of a four-decade cycle of ever-more-sophisticated financial engineering – from junk bond financing to collateralized debt obligations to algorithmic trading.

DeFi will face the same pattern as other “innovation waves”: engineering, hype, speculation, bust, and consolidation. But unlike 1c0, we believe Defi will have a lasting impact, in ways we might not imagine at present.

With high APY to solve the liquidity issue, yield farming stirred the market hot, but it also amplified people’s greed, made people impatient with the project’s fundamentals and development progress. Pumping the price up is the sole aspiration for them. Defi is still a game of who runs fast and has little to do with the real economy.

K: Elena在2019年和Michael J. Casey在巴哈马一起开会的时候认识，他的一篇文章中讲到，其实Defi并不新鲜，它是持续了40年越来越复杂的金融工程的产物，它和其他创新一样，会经历构建、炒作、投机、破裂和重整的阶段。但是和1c0不一样，Defi有基础的业务和营收，我们相信Defi对区块链的发展将有着非常持久的影响。

之前的这段时间，由于Yield Farming的高回报率，市场被搅得很热，人们对项目的基本面和开发进展都不关心，只关心币价何时to the moon，而且后期项目嘈杂，defi变成了一个看谁跑得快的游戏，与实体的经济也缺乏联系。

我认为这是一个新事物发展的必备阶段，yield farming这一波偃旗息鼓了，但Defi不等于就是yield farming。目前Defi的小寒冬其实是很好的，可以让团队静下心来做创新，踏实做项目。我们看到有不少团队在围绕着Layer 2，DEX用户体验，更多的金融产品在做很多工作，让我们期待下一波defi 春天的到来。

7、您对DeFi和DAO组织未来的判断是什么样的？

7、 How do you see the future of Defi and DAO?

E：I’m quite optimistic with the future of Defi and DAO. And I think Defi’s future is closely connected with DAO. And DAO also needs to evolve. And with Layer 2 and enhanced DAO, I would expect the coming of Defi 2.0.

Defi 2.0 will be built on a much scalable and affordable infrastructure, which is represented by Layer 2 (different rollups)and Ethereum 2.0.

Defi 2.0 will have a much robust governance framework to guide the community’s power.

Defi 2.0 will connect and support real-world economic activities.

K：我对Defi和DAO的未来很乐观，而且我认为Defi的未来和DAO紧密相关，当然DAO本身也需要进化。有了Layer 2和增强型的DAO，我期待Defi 2.0的到来。

Defi 2.0会构建在更高扩展性和更经济的基础架构上（各种rollup为代表的Layer 2和Ethereum 2.0）Defi 2.0会拥有一个更强健的DAO治理框架来引领社群的力量。Defi 2.0将会连接和支持现实世界的经济活动。

我同意Elena的观点，Defi的未来与Layer 2和DAO紧密联系在一起。在Layer 2的支持下，更复杂的金融逻辑可以被构建到智能合约中，而同时执行费用会大大降低，这样更多更复杂的金融衍生品会出现，而且对于那些短线的交易者而言，滑点和交易费用也会更加平滑，有利于更多交易的执行。

而且应该会有越来越多的团队来嫁接Defi和现实世界的应用。Defi不可能一直是投机，只有支持现实世界的非投机经济活动，Defi才能可持续发展。这种与现实世界的链接还会进一步促进DEX做大，促进更多的Defi金融产品出现和创新。

另外，我认为Defi将成为每个以社群为基础的项目的不可或缺的一个组件。

当然这一切都需要一个强大的DAO作为支撑，通过系统的治理结构和协作实施框架来引导社群的力量支撑Defi业务的发展。